Lewis NASH (Jazz Hot 621)

By Jean Szlamowicz

Since his last interview with Jazz Hot (issue n°584), the drummer from Phœnix has grown into an impressive master, because of his musicality as well as his enlightened approach to jazz. His melodic and energetic drumming possesses a great sense of subtlety blended to a vigorous Art Blakey feel and polythymic developments reminding of Elvin Jones and Max Roach. The interplay that he finds between the various parts of the drums set is a reflection of the interplay that he generates when plaing with musicians of his level. It comes from understanding the essence of jazz on a deep level.
We met at the Festival of Vitoria in Spain last summer where he led the jam-sessions with a fabulous trio comprising Bill Cunliffe (p) and Peter Washington (b). He talked about Art Blakey and also about his own music, that of a true jazz player confronted to the evolution of our society more and more alien to the philosophical and aesthetic values of jazz.


Jazz Hot : How would you describe his style as a drummer and his influence on the development of jazz drumming ?
The best way to describe his style is from the standpoint of his feeling, more so than the technical part. The swing, the dynamics, the forward momentum -- the swing always feels like it’s moving somewhere -- and also what I call the earthiness of it. It’s very grounded. It’s a feeling that comes out of the black churches. It feels good and it’s related to that feeling of backbeat (he claps his hand baptist-church fashion).

It’s not just about the press-rolls or his shuffle-- nobody ever sounded like him…
No, no, no. He was unique. So when you talk about his influence, from his place behind the drumset, he inspired many great musicians to play on a higher level than they would have had he not been around. He’s one of the leaders in jazz who, just because of his presence on stage, raised the level of musicianship of everybody on the bandstand.

He was a jazz activist too…
He certainly was. He wanted people to come out to listen to live music. He encouraged them to buy records and to come out to the clubs to see what live music feels like in person. I always try and encourage young musicians to listen to music live. They shouldn’t stop and just listen to the music on CD because live music is where it’s at. And also drumming is beautiful to see. I was fortunate to see Art Blakey, Max Roach, Arthur Taylor, Billy Higgins, many great drummers, I could sit very close and watch what they were doing and one thing I discovered is that the sound of the drums on a CD or LP is one thing but the sound live is something else. Art Blakey was one of those drummers -- it’s a bit difficult to capture the essence of his playing on record. I listened to so many of his recordings and the first time I heard him live, I was overwhelmed. I’d never seen or heard anything like that.

How do you account for the Jazz Messengers’ sound ?
Because of him. Because he was a true leader. It’s like Horace Silver -- Horace Silver’s groups always sounded like Horace Silver’s groups. There are certain characteristics that a leader can get out of group, he can mould or shape the group in his image so to speak. There’s a certain sound that a leader brings to a group. It’s a normal thing in fact: from the drummer’s place, you can orchestrate. You can shape the music using colours, dynamics, different parts of the drums, using the sticks or brushes or mallets. And also in delineating the form of the tune, it’s a form of orchestration. In a way he is composing and arranging on the stage while he is playing. And Blakey was a master at doing that.

I heard he was generous and also that he was very tough : what kind of person was he ?
I think any great leader probably has both sides. The tough side has to do with the very high standards that he demanded. He wanted the best from his musicians. He was quite generous -- when youn think about it, he’s taking these young musicians who don’t really know much yet. They were just starting to go on the road and getting some experience. He was helping them to find some direction, as musicians and as human beings. He was showing them what it was like as an adult to be traveling around and playing music.

Do you think there was a turn in his career when he started hiring no people of his own generation but younger people, more or less exclusively ?
I remember him at Birdland on the mike saying that he was helping these young musicians and he was going to change them when they got too old! I think he was sincerely inspired by the fact that these young musicians could inspire him. He was inspiring them too, but he needed that spirit of adventure. Betty Carter was another one who did that with young musicians. As a matter of fact, during the four years that I was with her, they had the same booking agent and they would be ber on the same tour. Jack Witthamore was his name.

Do you think it was a generational thing that he felt so strongly about jazz ?
I think it’s more to do with the individual outlook. Betty Carter and Art Blakey were both strong advocates of jazz music but it wasn’t the case of everybody. As great as he was, Miles Davis was not that type of advocate.

Contrary to Miles and other musicians whose music kept changing, Blakey’s music never strayerd away from a certain focus…
Everyone should to what they feel is important for them to do. Where I have a problem is when people begin to say that a certain type of change is required, that jazz is about innovation. It’s not only about innovation. I don’t care too much for that word. What about ‘quality’ ? What about ‘excellent musicianship’ ? What about ‘high level of musicality ?’ Or ‘expression’ ? In poetry, or painting or film, everything doesn’t have to be on the cutting edge all the time. Critics in jazz or musicians make it sound like if you’re not doing that, you’re not doing anything worthwhile. It’s very important to be yourself, whatever that means and people have to accept that. When we have a problem is when people start putting you down for being yourself.

What did you get from Blakey yourself ?
The intensity of his playing. It seems like he was always giving a hundred percent. He was always inspiring and he was responding to what was going on around him. This is a great lesson to be learnt, to always be present, in the present moment, and keep the momentum of the music going.

You’ve been playing with Steve Wilson as a duet recently…
We take music from the jazz repertoire -- Ellington, Monk -- and because it’s a duo setting, of course, it doesn’t sound ‘traditional’ and we just allow ourselves to be creative and listen to each other. It’s not just that we’re not playing without piano and bass. Sometimes I might be doing something on my bass drum to emulate a bass feeling or he may arpegiate chords to sound like a bass line while I play melodic… We’re still exploring the possibilities of what we can do in that setting. That format is usually thought of as avant-garde but we’re not doing that. It’s not that we’re trying to make the music especially accessible, that’s where we come from. Just because there are only two of us doesn’t mean we’re going to change that.

How do you account for the critics always wanting something new ?
I have many thought on that and maybe in another interview we can go deeper into that. We don’t need to drastically alter certain things -- primal things like smell, taste, touch, communication. Like right now, we’re speaking to each other, in English and we’re not changing the language. The things that are innovative in communication are not so much the language itself but the means -- e-mail, computers, cellular phones… In music what does that mean ? We have hi-fidelity and so on but we still speak the same language. It doesn’t mean we have to change to a new language all the time. I try to remain open to different types of music. I like music from West Africa, Brazil, the Carribbean, Cuban -- but I believe that the feeling of jazz that I was attracted to at the beginning is what brought me to it. And this is the feeling that I enjoy to play. It’s not a matter of remaining comfortable in a style that’s old. This feeling is perpetually energising for me. It’s like a therapy -- when I play a ride cymbal beat pattern, when I’m playing time.
Some people need to go for a run. It gives me a sense of well-being and completeness when I’m playing the way that I play. I didn’t work on having a good time and a good sound from my cymbals in order to not do that ! (laughs) And everytime you reinvent it. In modern society we lose touch with things that are grounding, things that tie us to tradition. Tradition has become a bad word, why ? ! In our families, we may have a picture of opur grand-father on the walls and our great-grand-father or the entire lineage of our family. It gives us a certain feeling. We feel how important that lineage is. Even though we’re living in the XXIth century, we feel that connection. I don’t want to lose that connection with the great tradition of jazz by completely abandonning the vocabulary, by completely abandonning the feeling of the music, by only writing music that my band plays. I would like to be able to grow but what about the tradition of writing music that other people wanna play also ? Not only are you allowing your music to be played by other people but it is also a way to make money ! (laughs) When no one plays your music but you, it can be very self-indulgent in my opinion. If you’re the only one playing it, what’s the point ? It also gives you a chance to hear another interpretation of your music. People are losing their interpreters’ skills—because they’re only playing what they want to play. You lose the ability to adapt other things into your vocabulary.

Interpreting a tune is an art in itself and you seem to be very strong at giving a new twist to well-known tunes…
The more you do this, the more you’re beginning to have ideas for your own music. When you take the greatest or the best of other people’s music, you begin to understand how a great composer like Monk or Herbie Nichols, or Mingus, or Horace Silver was thinking. When you interpret their music you hear something you like and you try it with your own band -- you just get ideas. You’re not in a cocoon by yourself, just thinking about you and your music and what you want to do.

It takes some humility to accept that…
Yes, it does. But once you become comfortable with who you are and where you are, there’s no problem.

I have the feeling that you’ve become a more directive drummer because of the wealth of ideas that you bring to the table…
If you do the things that I have just described to you -- I have played with Tommy Flanagan, Sonny Rollins, McCoy Tyner… I was patient, I was absorbing everything I could from these people. It only feeds your ability to be a leader and to able to bring these things that they can bring to the table. I wasn’t in a big hurry. I always knew that I wanted to lead bands. I have the duo with Steve Wilson, I have the trio with Steve Nelson (vb) and Peter Washington (b). And I have a quintet and a septet. I’m trying to create lots of different situations where I can use all the things I learnt from the great people that I have played with. I played with John Lewis before he passed away, and I incorporated things from him that I liked. And he’s not even a drummer but I learnt things about the drums from playing with him. Ron Carter is another example -- I learnt things about the sound of the drums with him and how to make it work. From Tommy Flanagan too. You see what I’m talking about ? When people come along and they are 20-25 and they don’t get a chance to learn anything from the masters and they’re just focused on themselves… How many times has someone like Hank Jones sat down at a piano ? How many times has he figured out something different on the same standard ?
This is depth of musicianship. The outcome of my patience in waiting to step out and be a leader is that I feel I have now the kind of tools that I needed to do this kind of things. A leader is one who selects the repertoire, who picks the musicians, who decides how to pace the set, who’s inspiring the other musicians on stage, who knows when to calm things down and when it needs to lift, who related to the audience… All these you learn from people who have been doing it for a long time.

You’re part of a mature generation who is now a go-between with older players…
I suppose you could look at it that way. We were some of the last musicians who were able to know those musicians, Art Blakey, Betty Carter and Dexter Gordon… We were able to hear them play, play with them… In that sense, we have something to share with the younger musicians, if they’re willing to listen.

There’s a great reluctance to hear the lessons of the past…

If you do something a lot and you spend a lot of time refining it, you become better and better. You will learn more and more subtleties. If you’re not playing time, if you’re not working on that tradition we’re talking about -- Art Blakey, Elvin Jones, Roy Haynes, Billy Higgins -- if you adapt pieces of it, you won’t get the meat of it, the root of it. You will never get to do these things at a high level. Take another example -- I like to talk about athletes, I play basketball -- if you take someone like Kobe Bryant or any great baskeball player, they go to the gym everyday and shoot free-throws, they practise their shot everyday -- how can you be able to build on your swing concept if you don’t swing ? Can you just say ‘I listened to Art Blakey, I like it but I do something different’. Everyone should do what they like. But don’t tell me what jazz is and what is not from that basis or that playing in time with the swing is passé -- I can only laugh because I know what it takes because I practised. I know what it takes to arrive at a certain intensity, when to pull back and when to push, to know how to adapt to each different bass player… If you are not doing that on a regular basis, you can not be as adept at it, as precise as if you were doing it regularly.
Some critics and musicians hear a steady time and a walking bass and they stop listening. They are not listening to the quality of the bass player’s notes, the harmonic nuances… You can have some amateur playing boom boom boom, stupid notes, terrible sound… and they don’t know the difference with a great bass player ! Those of us who love the music know what it’s about. I’m comfortable with myself -- you don’t have to be innovative or cutting edge in every aspect of your life. In other areas of my life, I’m not mainstream -- I’ve been a vegetarian for 25 years, I’m involved in alternative methods of healing, chinese medicine, acupuncture, etc. Now it’s becoming more accepted but in the 70’s you were a hippy. I’ve been reading a lot about it. I am not afraid to be labelled mainstream.