Harry ALLEN (Jazz Hot 619)

By Serge Baudot

Harry Allen is a saxophone player who comes from a tenor saxophone tradition rarely followed nowadays. He is a sort of new Al Cohn with claimed influences such as Ben Webster, Zoot Sims, Paul Gonsalves, Lester Young, Stan Getz. Exit John Coltrane. Then with a round, soft and warm sound, a slurred phrasing, a harmonic elegance, and a swing which can be discreet or hot, but always overflooding each performance. He has played with such big names as Kenny Burrell, Oliver Jackson, Scott Hamilton, Tommy Flanagan, Terry Gibbs, George Mraz and Al Foster.
He has particularly distinguished himself with his great solos at the Estoril Festival 2003, playing with Claudio Roditi, Steve Turre, Ronnie Matthews, Rodney Whitaker and Carl Allen.
The man is charming, opened, knowing what he wants, where he’s coming from, and where he’s going to.

Jazz Hot : Where and when were you born ?
I Was born in Washington, D.C. on the 12th of october 1966, my family moved to Los Angeles, with me, when I was one, and we moved in Long Island when I was eleven, and I stayed there until I graduate from high school, then I moved in the New-York area, in New Jersey.

Was the saxophone your first instrument ?
I started playing accordeon at the age of seven.

Why the accordeon ?
A guy came knocking on the door selling accordeon licenses, he traveled himself for an accordeon studio, and my sister and I were fascinated, so we started playing accordeon. Then when I was eleven I started playing clarinet, and when I was twelve I took to the tenor saxophone.

Why the saxophone ?
I had always wanted to play the saxophone. I wanted to play the saxophone before age twelve but my father who was a drummer, he was no more a professional drummer when I was born but earlier in his life, during the big band era.

Famous big bands ?
Well, he played with some famous people. He worked for the band out of Boston, it was a sort of territory band, and he played in the navy band in world war II. He played with Johnny Birkley, a great song writer, he played with Paul Gonsalves, Duke Ellington’s tenor player. And then he got out of the music business, he became an engineer, but obviously he loved music and knew a lot about it, so when I wanted to play saxophone he said : You should start clarinet first. So I sarted clarinet first, but I was always thinking of the saxophone. Even when I was younger than seven I loved the saxophone.

Was it the sound, or the shape of the instrument ?
I don’t know. I listened to a lot of records that my father was playing around the house, so I presume that I heard a lot of Paul Gonsalves when I was very, very young, a lot of Duke Ellington, a lot of Ella Fitzgerald. I don’t know exactly why, but I first wanted the saxophone.

And then what about your musical studies ?
I played all the way through high school, and when I went to college at Rutgers University I studied music there.

What sort of music, classical music ?
No, jazz. I had played a little bit of classical music, but not very much, and I had hardly played the saxophone, and a little bit the accordeon and the clarinet.

Do you still play the accordeon ?
No, I haven’t touched an accordeon in lot of years. I still play piano, I play a lot when I am home.

I suppose you compose music on the piano ?
Not always on the piano, I compose sometimes on the piano, sometimes just in my head.

You hear the music and you can write it down ?
Yes. Being a saxophone player rather than a piano player, when I try to compose on the piano, I am very limited by my capacity on the piano. But in my head there are no limitation, so…

You need the piano for the harmony, for the chords ?
Well, not necessarily, I can compose the harmony and the melody in my head, without having to be at the piano.

So you’re free to compose whenever you like and wherever you are !
That’s true ! And actually the tunes I’m most happy with them are the tunes that have been written away from the piano. Just ideas that have come to me.

I suppose you had heroes for the saxophone ?
Absolutely ! But my first big hero was Duke Ellington. After I had switched the saxophone, a friend of my dad who was a great saxophone player himself, Nick Peter, suggested that I picked up Scott Hamilton records. I did, and I loved the sound. He was my first hero, and from there I went backwards to Ben Webster, and Lester Young, Coleman Hawkins. And then Zoot Sims, Stan Getz, Al Cohn, etc…

I think there is something of Al Cohn in your playing ?
Yes I am very influenced by Al Cohn. And I am very influenced by Stan Getz, Ben Webster, and Paul Gonsalves.

Did you try to imitate them ?
When I was younger, certainly. Now I’m not trying to imitate any one, I try to play my own voice, but I’m certainly influenced by all those guys.

Do you like John Coltrane ?
I love Coltrane, and I think he is a marvellous musician. But I don’t certainly want to play like that. I have different views of what is important in music. Sound is one of the most important things to me. I much prefer a softer rounder sound like Ben Webster to a harder more centred sound like John Coltrane.

So I suppose you worked hard to find your sound, and your phrasing ?
Yes, all the time. And harmonic ideas, Which are very important.

But how can you work to find a phrasing, and a sound?
Well, I think both you have to have a vision in your head as to where you want to get to, and then you just try to find ways to get to that idea you have in your head, what you want to sound like.

Because I suppose it’s part of what you are ?
Yes, and I would play anything and listening to it and thinking I like the way I phrase that, or I could have phrased that better. It’s something you never stop working on. You shouldn’t stop working on it. If you stop working on it you’re in trouble.

Do you think that a young jazz musician today has to know the whole tradition of jazz music ?
Well, I think it’s good to know the tradition. If you don’t know the tradition, you don’t really know why people are playing like they are now. I think it’s good to know why I play G sharp, I want to know why I am playing the G sharp, there is a reason for it . And there’s a reason why people are playing the way they do today, or the way they were doing in the sixties. And if you don’t know the tradition you don’t know why.

Do you think that now jazz is still typically American, or are there different sorts of jazz, different ways to play it according to the countries ?
At this point where basically everybody’s growing up listening to the same records, I don’t really think that there is a, say…a European way of playing jazz, or an American way, I think music is music, and each individual is different from each other individual, I don’t necessarily see a trend of American musicians playing like that. I couldn’t even say how New-York musicians play, because in New-York there are thousands and thousands of different ways the guys play. I think that would be hard to say.

You think that now jazz is a universal music ?
Yes, that always happened, but especially now there are great musicians everywhere.

So, what is jazz for you ? Your feeling about jazz ?
I think it’s a swinging rythm. If there is not swinging rythm involved, then it’s not a lot separated from all other forms of music, with similar harmonies. So I think that’s the essence of jazz.

And could you say what swing is ?
That’s a difficult one (laughs) ! I can tell you when it happens. (After thinking for a while)…You know when it’s there, you know when it’s not there.

If it’s not there, it’s not jazz ?
Well, sometimes the band is trying, they are not making it, but they’re trying, it’s still jazz, but not in a higher level.

Do you think swing can be taught ?
I think it could be taught in a… The challenge is in a person who just doesn’t realise the rythm is where jazz is. They can be still in that direction, I’ve seen that happening. Well for instance in my case I can tell you the exact job I was on, I was on a job with another saxophone player and I realised that his rythm was much more on harmony than mine, I listened to him and I listened to me and said : he’s swinging and I am not swinging, that’s why his rythm is better than mine. From then on I worked on it, and I’m having really good time when playing with a very swinging rythmic. I have the rythmic idea into my head for what I wanted to be but I think I can say that I can swing, yes.

But maybe it doesn’t totally rely on the rythm section ?
Not necessarily, like Louis Armstrong said : You don’t like the band, play with the rythm section in your head. So Ruby Braff asked him : Who is the rythm section in your head ? And Louis said : That wrong band ! (laughs) You can always listen, oh there are numbers of examples, for instance Stan Getz in Stan records with a low part of rythm section and he sounds so beautiful, and so swing. Zoot Sims is another one, Charlie Parker is another one, they make any rythm section swings. I do a lot of tours where the guest artists play with local bands, you get all sorts of varying degrees of professionals, sometimes the band is great, sometimes it’s not so great, you just have to make sure you’re swinging yourself.

Do you think it’s still possible to find new trends in jazz ?
I don’t think anything very new has surfaced in the recent years, but I think it certainly could. yes it’s still possible. My view on it is what Count Basie said : Change is no good if you’re thinking about it, change is only a good thing if it comes naturally. So what I am trying to do is playing tunes that I like, tunes that I think are interesting, play them the way I want to play them, the way I’m hearing. If I come up to something new, great ! I don’t look for it. Then I’m trying to play music the best way, and that’s still inventive, even if it’s not inovating.

There have been so many great jazz musicians for a century that it is harder and harder to find his own voice ?
Yes, right ! It’s important to have your own voice, because when people listen to you they can tell it’s you. I think people don’t have that ability much these days than in the past. But it’s still something that I’m striving for. I think all musicians are striving for.

You played with a lot of great musicians, did you learn many things from them ?
Yes, I’m very lucky to play with them. Absolutely, I learnt from everybody I worked with, good and bad.

What did you learn from the bad ones ?
The most obvious thing is that you learn what not to do ! But you also can pick up a good thing as well. You can learn from any situation.

Paul Bley told me he liked to do an error because he had to invent something just to make this error creative. Do you agree ?
Yes, absolutely. A lot of times I make a mistake and come up with something that I didn’t intend to, but I really think it’s nice.

You played with Kenny Burrell, how was it to play with him ?
Oh great, I love Kenny. Obviously he’s one of the greatest piano players of all time. He’s an extremely nice guy. I knew Kenny from Rutgers University, he was one of the piano instructors, he was the piano instructor. He got me on my very first recording, and then I did one of my own records with him, years later.

And with Rosemary Clooney ?

Rosemary Clooney, I just worked I think twice with her. I loved her singing. She is one of the great, and getting to play with her was a real pearl.

Is it interesting to back a singer ?

With a great singer yes. I love that. I think it’s very interesting to find obligados behind vocals. When it comes obligados, it’s so much more fun, and so much easier with great singers because their phrasing is great. And they give you a lot of space to fill in. Many singers who aren’t so great, they go right up to the end, and their phrasing is not very good, and so you’re constantly wondering whether you’re coming next, how high they are doing that note, and they don’t leave you any space. But I’ve never had that with great singers. I was lucky enough to work with Rosemary Clooney,Tony Bennett, and Maxine Sullivan.

You said you loved Scott Hamilton, and you played with him ?

Yes, at this point I’ve played two or three or four times. We did a concert recently. And we just recorded together a few months ago. I met him when I was a kid, I was probably 15 years old, and he’s been so nice to me through the years. When I was in high school, and college, and just out of college, wherever I would go see him, I could play a number of tunes with him, he was always really supportive of me, gracious with me. So it’s a pleasure and a lot of fun to play with him now, because of what he meant to me, and my musical approach.

Do you still have a steady group?

I do have a steady quartet with Joe Cohn, Al Cohn’s son, he is a great guitar player, Joe Fords on bass, and Chuck Riggs on drums.

Do you know how many records you did as a leader ?

I’ve been very lucky. I don’t know exactly, it’s over twenty. I record for BMG Japan. We’ve been doing two records a year for seven years, I’m very lucky to be associated with them.

You do them in Japan ?

No, we do them in New-York. You might not know lots of them because they haven’t been all released in Europe.

I saw you had two awards, is it important ?

I got a few Gold Disc Awards in Japan, from Swing Journal magazine, which is their big magazine. It’s sort of equivalent of the Down Beat Awards. Every month they award CDs, which is different from the Gold Disc. Then they also have yearly awards. I won the New Star Award. I think it’s important for the record company, for the press in Japan. And I was extremely flattered and happy that they wanted to give me those awards. Well, those awards, or the Grammies, etc, they don’t mean anything musically, but commercially they are very good.

Is there anything you’d like to say ?
I’d like to say that I love the Jazz Hot magazine, by the way !

Site : www.harryallen.com